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Austrian emperors as "German monarchs"?
Please stop to claim that AUSTRIAN Emporers had been "German Monarchs", and stop putting them on the list of "German Monarchs". The German Federation was a loose Federation and Austrian Emporers where only the "presidents", but they were (first of all!) AUSTRIAN Monarchs as they were emporers of the Austrian Empire. Germany didnt start to be an Empire before 1871 when the Dynasty of the "Hohenzoller" founde the "Deutsche Reich". So please keep the Austrian Emporers out of this, they had nothing to do with the German Empire as they had their own Empire. You can find all facts about this in the article Deutscher Bund. -- Rfortner 21:42, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Sorry guys, but this discussion is a useful as "has Mozart been an Austrian or a German?". I guess there is no politically and historically correct answer. In 1866 Austria left the Deutschen Bund and was completeley independent. Until then of couse Austria was "somewhat" German. But, of course, I also don't like the Austrian monarchs of the 19th century to be called german. In the aftermath, calling them (as Rfortner statet starting perhaps in 1804 with Joseph II) German is like calling George Washington a Briton. While there is some truth in both expressions, it's not how things are expected to be called.--Wirthi 08:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Since more than 24 hours there has been no response to the arguments that I brought here. Louis88, the creator of this template also never responded to those arguments HERE and didnt bring any facts do defend his template. Therefore I adapted the template by limiting it to those Monarchs of Germany where this template-title is appropiate, even when it is not fully clear for the time of the Norddeutscher Bund (before 1871) where southern germanspeaking countries (like Bavaria) where still indipendent. -- Rfortner 18:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Charles, please bring arguments and facts before reverting again! I have brought mine here, so factual your opinion is POV. Also Louis88 never came here to defend his template. So stop starting an edit war without bringing facts and arguments into the discussion. -- Rfortner
"But there was no Germany before 1871" <-- LOL. Anyway, seeing that Franz II used the style Germaniae Rex until 1806 (as had been done since the 16th century), he can probably be considered a "German monarch" afterwards. Austria was in the German confederation, thus its monarch should be in the list of German monarchs. --SKopp 10:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
How To Talk German Video
Move of template
In consideration of all the arguments that we have been discussing here (and the reverts that have been taking place) during the last week I have now moved the template to "Evolution of the German Empire 1806-1918". This is the most correct title for the facts that are simplified in the template. By doing so, we avoid to limit it to the period starting from 1871 (what Louis88 didnt want to do), but we also avoid a request for deletion of the whole template. I hope we can agree on this concensus, as even Charles has mentioned the "renaming"-possibilitie in the discussion above. ... The only problem I still have is a layout problem, as (on my screen) the Headline looks awfull. How does it come? -- Rfortner 18:01, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
1) The renaming is ok from my side, but I dont know what other users will say about it.
2) There where INDIPENDENT german(speaking) states but there was no German Empire or National State of Germany before 1871, while Austria was allready an Empire after 1804. (And even before 1804 Austria was much more unified by the Habsburg-Administration than Germany before 1871).
3) Sorry to correct you, but Prussia would realy have liked to force Austria in its Empire, but they realised that Austria was to unified and had to much military force to do so. THEN they decided to do everything to kick it out of this confederation, while otherwise they would have done the same to Austria as what they did to Bavaria. During the Time of the Deutscher Bund there where considerations from outside of Austria about seperating the germanspeaking-part of Austria and integrating THIS into a German Empire, but Austria refused to do say, namely its Prime-Minister Schwarzenberg.
4) Sorry for my spelling, but English is not my mother-language, and I dont see the need to write in perfect English here in an endless discussion. I do take care when I edit articles, but not here for such a discussion. -- Rfortner 11:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
What are you calling Germany, Str1977? The HRE (with today's Czech republic, parts of Italy, Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Austria, Netherlands,... in it, but for example not the whole of Prussia?), the German confederation (it was just as association of Central European states - you wouldn't call the EU a state, would you, even though it has a greater "state-character" then the German confederation had)? Sorry, but Austria was no part of Germany before 1938 - because Germany didn't exist - only German speaking territories (maybe that is what you mean by geographical region - but then it has nothing to do with a state or a nation). And of course the Austrian empire is defined as a state from today's view; no serious historian would deny that. Austrian emperors after 1806 are not German emperors and emperors of the HRE are usually called only holy roman emperors (because the name "HREGN" was seldom officially used). The "German question" wasn't really important till the middle of the 19th century and the first German state was the German Empire (1871). mv, 16.07.2007
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